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Saturday, March 13th

The enemy of my enemy is...my enemy?


In Chicago, gay activists apparently are so determined to get what they want, when they want it–NOW!–that they are no longer capable of recognizing their friends, or so it appears from this Chicago Sun-Times article:

Angry gay activists surrounded Cook County Clerk David Orr at a busy downtown intersection Thursday, screaming at him and pushing until police pushed back.

The effort to bring more attention to gay marriage rights turned physical at Madison and Dearborn, with Orr caught in the middle.

Orr had joined dozens of other elected officials and community leaders in signing an open letter to U.S. Rep. J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) condemning the idea of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, as President Bush is proposing.


That, of course, earned him the wrath of the crowd:

From there, Orr and others joined a rally of about 125 people at Federal Plaza, but when protesters saw Orr–long a champion of gay rights–they turned their anger to him.

That's because Orr's office issues marriage licenses, but he won't issue licenses to same-sex couples until there is legal backing.

"Justice delayed is justice denied," the crowd chanted.

"Sign licenses not letters," the crowd chanted at Orr and at two openly gay officials–state Rep. Larry McKeon (D-Chicago) and Ald. Tom Tunney (44th)–who signed the open letter to Hastert and who then came to support the rally.


So apparently being a "champion of gay rights," or gay yourself, means nothing if you haven't done anything for us in the last 15 minutes. Nothing like delayed gratification.

"If we're going to get justice in this town, we're going to have to fight the Democratic Party in Chicago," said Andy Thayer, a protest organizer chanting at Orr. "If we think we're going to sweet talk the Mayor Daleys of this world into doing the right thing, we're being naive. When we're talking about equal rights under the law, you're either with us or against us.

"Don't stand in our way and say, 'Oh, give us a few more years.' It's past time for that. And don't be fooled. We do have our Clarence Thomases of our movement."


Now there's an insult for you.

Not everyone in the gay community insists on juvenile caterwauling and public displays of temper as the height of activist chic. Some actually recognize the rule of law, and seek orderly change that will achieve the maximum results while alienating as few of the vast heterosexual majority as possible. However the debate over gay marriage turns out, I hope for the sake of civility that the latter can be heard over the screaming of the emotional four-year-olds.
Athanasius on 03.13.04 @ 08:38 PM EST [link]


Friday, March 12th

Thanks for the kudo


I'm honored to have been named "Blog of the Day" by Albert at Labarum Blog. I really appreciated what he had to say:

Just when you think time might be running out on the modern Church, here comes Ecumenical Insanity to demonstrate it's a lot later than you think. Definitely proves absurdity knows no denominational distinctions.

That it doesn't. Help me return the favor by paying him a visit.
Athanasius on 03.12.04 @ 09:38 PM EST [link]


First priority: save the abortions


One of my loyal readers sent this story from WRAL.com. It's a terrible tragedy, but inevitably, someone is more worried about abortion rights:

SALT LAKE CITY–A woman accused of murder because she allegedly avoided a Caesarean section that could have saved her unborn twin has denied the charge, saying she already had scars from earlier C-sections.

Her attorney, meanwhile, said she had a long history of mental illness.

Melissa Ann Rowland, 28, was charged Thursday of showing "depraved indifference to human life," ignoring medical advice to deliver her twins by C-section because she didn't want to be scarred. One nurse told police Rowland said she would rather "lose one of the babies than be cut like that."

Rowland told Salt Lake City radio station KSL from jail that "I already have a pretty nasty scar, it doesn't matter at all now," The Salt Lake
Tribune reported.

Her attorney, Michael Sikora, called a C-section major surgery and told the
Tribune "it would come as no surprise that a woman with major mental illness would fear it."

The documents allege that Rowland was warned numerous times between Christmas and Jan. 9 that her unborn twins would likely die if she did not get immediate medical treatment, the documents allege. When she delivered them on Jan. 13, the twin girl survived but the boy died.

The case could affect abortion rights and open the door to the prosecution of mothers who smoke or don't follow their obstetrician's diet, said Marguerite Driessen, a law professor at Brigham Young University.

"It's very troubling to have somebody come in and say we're going to charge this mother for murder because we don't like the choices she made," she said.


As I said, this is a terrible situation, and I'm not sure whether I would prosecute the woman or not, given her mental disability. But notice that that's not what concerns Professor Driessen. She's more worried that a court might actually consider a dead child to be of any legal (much less moral) consequence. On the other hand, she has a point: if abortion is available on demand, for any and every reason, at every stage of pregnancy, then what's the real difference between what Melissa Rowland did and what abortionists urge their patients to do every day?

(Hat tip: Reepicheep)
Athanasius on 03.12.04 @ 08:59 PM EST [link]


Ethical criminal


Reuters puts this in its "Oddly Enough" category. That's one way to put it:

LONDON–A scientist dubbed the "Safeway poisoner" and jailed for trying to poison his wife has been employed by a British university to lecture students on ethics, the institution said on Thursday.

Paul Agutter served seven years of a 12-year sentence for attempted murder after he laced his wife's gin and tonic with deadly nightshade in 1994 and then tried to cover his tracks by spiking drinks in a Safeway supermarket.

The University of Manchester said it followed "due process" in hiring Agutter to teach adult education classes, including a one-day course on "Therapeutic Cloning: Ethics and Science."

Medical ethics lecturer Piers Benn told Reuters criminal convictions and teaching ethics were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

"Normally people who get into moral philosophy do so because they care about making the world a better place or putting things right," said Benn, of Imperial College London.

"But I can't see any logical contradiction between being able to think about ethical questions and being able to do rather criminal acts."

Manchester University said it had not decided whether an April course on evolution taught by Agutter would go ahead.


Coming next to the University of Manchester: Raskolnikov lectures on the Napoleonic complex in a psychology class; Hermann Goering offers his thought on precision bombing in a military science seminar; and Jack the Ripper examines the large intestine in Anatomy 101.
Athanasius on 03.12.04 @ 08:37 PM EST [link]


Thursday, March 11th

No stoopid people need apply


As everyone knows, American academia leans left. Not like the Leaning Tower of Pisa leans–more like the way a ski jumper leans out over his skis when he sails off the jump. Professors who are registered members of left-wing political parties (Democrat, Green, etc.) outnumber members of right-wing parties (Republican, Constitution, etc.) by staggering proportions–for example, at Williams College (MA) only Republicans can be found on a faculty of almost 200; at the University of Colorado at Boulder, leftists outnumber rightists in the English department 37-0; at Brown in the history department, it's 17-0. You get the point. Recently, the chair of the philosophy department at Duke, Robert Barnard, explained why this is so. He was quoted in the Chronicle of Higher Education, but since I can't find it on their site, I'll refer to the citation of his remarks by The New Criterion:

Last month, The Chronicle ran an advertisement placed by the Duke Conservative Union which called on Duke's president to address herself to the lack of political diversity among Duke's faculty. Duke in this respect looks a lot like most other universities: in its history department, for example, there were thirty-two registered Democrats, a few unaffiliated faculty and, yep, zero Republicans. Nothing unusual there: just the usual academic understanding of diversity in action. What was a bit unusual was Professor Brandon's explanation of the preponderance of left-leaning faculty at Duke. "We try to hire the best, smartest people available," Professor Brandon told The Chronicle.

"If, as John Stuart Mill said, stupid people are generally conservative, then there are lots of conservatives we will never hire. Mill's analysis may go some way towards explaining the power of the Republican party in our society and the relative scarcity of Republicans in academia. Players in the NBA tend to be taller than average. There is a good reason for this. Members of academia tend to be a bit smarter than average. There is a good reason for this too."

It is not often, we think, that academic arrogance makes quite so blatant a spectacle of itself. Everyone knows that professors as a group tend to think they are smarter and politically more virtuous than anyone outside the professorial flock, but generally they communicate this conviction indirectly, through snobbery and other forms of patronizing behavior. There is something almost touching about Professor Brandon's naked braggadocio. It is also nice that he manages to mangle John Stuart Mill and commit eighty-seven (some have detected ninety-four) logical mistakes in the space of his few sentences.

In our view, John Stuart Mill has a lot to answer for, but he never claimed that "stupid people are generally conservative." He would never have been so stupid. What he wrote, in a footnote discussing Disraeli in Considerations on Representative Government, was that the Conservative party in England was "the stupidest party." We trust that the chairman of the philosophy department at Duke University will appreciate the distinction.

In his letter complaining about the unpleasant response he had had to his comments, Professor Brandon announced that he would leave Mill out of his discussion. This was a wise decision. It might also be wise were he to take his own advice and "read more Mill." He might then avoid the atrocious logic of his opening sentence: "If, as John Stuart Mill said …" Exactly how, Professor, does it follow from what you say Mill said (only he didn't) that "then there are lots of conservatives we will never hire"? And how does Mill's "analysis," or whatever it is you think of as Mill's analysis—in fact, it is an unsupported contention thrown out for rhetorical effect—how does it explain "the power of the Republican party in our society"? How does it explain "the relative scarcity of Republicans in academia"? It doesn't. Of course, we know what you mean. You mean that you regard people who share your politics—which are the politics of 98 percent of the Duke faculty—as smarter than people who don't. But doesn't a professor of philosophy, albeit a professor of philosophy at Duke, have an elementary obligation to represent accurately a thinker he cites? And shouldn’t he make some effort to reason coherently and not simply emote?


Wonderfully put.
Athanasius on 03.11.04 @ 10:24 PM EST [link]


A fifth freedom


There's a new political force abroad in the land. The godless hordes–literally– have decided it's time to stand up for their rights:

The Godless Americans PAC grew out of the historic "Godless Americans March on Washington" (GAMOW) held on November 2, 2002 in Washington, DC.

For the first time in history, our nation's diverse community of Atheists, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and others who do not embrace religious creeds marched together for civil rights, the separation of state and church, and their full recognition as American citizens.

We demanded "a place at the table" in this great discussion known as democracy.


Newly born, and they've already got the niceties of grievance politics down. But one has to wonder: when exactly were atheists, et. al., denied their "place at the table"? When were they declared to be only semi-citizens? As far as I know, they have all the rights and privileges of every other American. One could argue that, given their small percentage of the general population, they are way over-represented in such influential institutions as the academy, the media, and the judiciary (which kowtows to their every whim and perceived slight). So what's the problem?

Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists and Chairwoman of the GAMOW Task Force noted: "Every other group in American history, from women suffragettes to blacks, gays and even the religious right has taken those first steps toward recognition by marching on our nation's capital. It's now our turn!"

Well, actually Jews, Unitarians, chimney sweeps and Wall Street daytraders have never marched on Washington demanding their rights, but give 'em time. Johnson sounds like a four-year-old: "He got to stick his finger in a light socket, so you have to let me do it, too!"

Looking out across the crowd assembled that day on the Mall in Washington, Johnson told the thousands of participants at GAMOW that she did not see isolated Atheists and other nonbelievers.

"I see a potential voting block. I see a new movement ready to assert its political and cultural influence in America."


Naderites of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your...what was it again?

The Godless Americans Political Action Committee was born. GAMPAC, like GAMOW, does not claim to represent every Atheist, Freethinker, Secular Humanist or other nonbeliever in the United States. It does, however, provide those who wish to participate a voice, a strategy, a vehicle in promoting the policies we embrace. It allows us to endorse political candidates who support our vision of a secular America, one where our right to freedom of and freedom From religion is valued and protected.

As I read the First Amendment, it doesn't say anything about "freedom From [sic] religion," only "freedom of religion." But then, I don't read the First through the special Urim and Thummim decoder glasses that folks like Johnson have. Which isn't to say that atheists, et. al., shouldn't have the right to worship themselves, only that they have no right to demand the total stripping of the public square of any and all religious expression. I don't have a right to demand never to be exposed to irreligion, and the reverse should obviously be true. Unfortunately, a lot of judges don't see it that way. So, the reason Johnson and her buddies need to organize again is what?

(Hat tip: Reepicheep)
Athanasius on 03.11.04 @ 11:17 AM EST [link]


Wednesday, March 10th

Episcopalians go to the dogs


I'm not a subscriber to the Wall Street Journal, but fortunately Dr. Kendall Harmon, South Carolina Episcopal priest and theologian, is. At his blog Titusonenine, I found this absolutely priceless piece of insanity, taken from the WSJ:

For the first time in 10 years, Mary Wilkinson went to church one Sunday in January. She sat in a back pew at St. Francis Episcopal Church in Stamford, Conn., flipping through a prayer book and listening intently to the priest's sermon. What drew Ms. Wilkinson back into the fold was a new monthly program the church introduced–Holy Communion for pets. As part of the service, the 59-year-old retired portfolio manager carried her 17-year-old tiger cat to the altar, waited in line behind three panting dogs to receive the host and had a special benediction performed for her cat, Purr Box Jr. "I like that the other parishioners are animal people," Ms. Wilkinson says. With pews hard to fill, a small number of otherwise-traditional clergy are welcoming animals into the flock. Some are creating pet-friendly worship services, while others have started making house calls for sick animals. Some are starting to accompany pet owners to the vet when they euthanize a beloved pet. Occasionally, clergy are even officiating at pet funerals and group "bark mitzvahs."

I serve a congregation that was a national Protestant pioneer in holding "blessing of the animals" services back in the late 70s. So folks in these parts have seen dogs, cats, hamsters, snakes, and all kinds of other critters come down the aisle. But they've never seen them served Communion. I believe this officially qualifies as blasphemy, if the word still has any meaning. Either that, or the priest in question is auditioning for the part of Balaam's donkey in Mel Gibson's next biblical epic.

Next up: a rat is consecrated as an Episcopal bishop. Oh, wait...
Athanasius on 03.10.04 @ 10:48 PM EST [link]


Celebrate abortion!


Did you know that today is the National Day of Appreciation for Abortion Providers? Did you even know there was such a thing? Well, there is, and if you're a member of a mainline church, there may be leadership somewhere in your denomination that supports it.

It's proclaimed each year by Refuse and Resist, a far-left advocacy organization (you know, the kind of folks who think Amerikkka is on the verge of becoming a police state). R&R lists the sponsors of this joyous annual event here, and while for the most part they're the usual suspects (ACLU, Catholics [sic] for a Free Choice, NOW, Naral Pro-Choice America, etc.), one of them is the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. Among the member organizations of the RCRC are: the United Methodist Board of Church and Society and Women's Division; Presbyterian Church (USA) Women's Ministries; United Church of Christ Justice and Witness Ministries; Episcopal Church Women in Mission and Ministry; Church of the Brethren's Women's Caucus; and the YWCA. Presumably they'd all like you to hug an abortionist today, and keep those support checks rolling in. At least as interesting as their participation in Kiss an Abortionist Day is the involvement of mainline groups like these with a moonbat outfit like Refuse and Resist. Of course, these are also some of the same people who think former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark (of Stalinist Workers World Party and International ANSWER fame) is a mainstream liberal.

(Thanks to Philalethia for the NDAAP link.)
Athanasius on 03.10.04 @ 03:59 PM EST [link]


History repeating itself


The tactics never seem to change: since liberals in the church can't get the votes to change the rules, they simply ignore them, create new "facts on the ground," and then demand that the church adapt as "God does a new thing." Case in point: the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, in the city that is at the very heart of Lutherandom:

A third congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in the Twin Cities has voted to call an openly gay pastor, defying ELCA policy that forbids ordination of anyone in a same-sex relationship.

Bethany Lutheran Church, on Franklin Avenue in Minneapolis' Seward neighborhood, intends to ordain Jay Wiesner on July 25 and call him as a pastor.

Wiesner, who is on the church's staff, will work with the Rev. Steven Benson, who said the members gave the vote a lot of thought and decided they had no choice.

"We hope this action will have a positive effect" on the ELCA, Benson said this week. There is "some worry about creating a backlash" by doing something so public, but "we also realize no liberation movement has happened by people remaining quiet." Bishop Craig Johnson of the ELCA Minneapolis Synod could impose sanctions against Bethany ranging from a minor reprimand to removal from the roster of official ELCA congregations. In similar cases, bishops have tended to issue "censure and admonition" rulings preventing the congregation from active participation in the wider church for a period of time.

Benson said that when the church council met with Johnson he urged Bethany to wait until after the 2005 ELCA General Assembly, which plans to vote on ordination of sexually active gays and lesbians.

While the Bethany council gave the bishop's request "careful consideration," Benson said, they decided to go ahead.


As reported in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Wiesner is on the roster of the Extraordinary Candidacy Project, an unofficial list of gay candidates for ordination. Asked about this by the paper's reporter, John Brooks, a spokesman for national ELCA HQ, said his offices don't keep track of how many of those on the roster have been called and ordained. That's interesting, because I found out in two minutes with a Google search:

Twelve ELCA congregations and three independent Lutheran congregations are currently being served by ECP pastors. Four ECP approved seminary graduates have been ordained and installed in ELCA congregations in the last two years. Members of the ECP roster are serving in California, Minnesota, Ohio, Missouri, Florida, and South Africa.

That's from the ECP Web site, Mr. Brooks. Maybe you should mosey on over and have a look. Or maybe because ELCA national staffers have a pro-gay agenda, you'd rather maintain "plausible deniability."
Athanasius on 03.10.04 @ 03:30 PM EST [link]


If the Councils are serious about Middle East peace...


...they'll join in this effort, reported today by Ecumenical News International:

An organization of Christians and Jews is putting up US$7 million to provide Israel with hundreds of explosive detectors on buses in a bid to prevent more suicide bombing attacks. "We hope this will have an immediate impact on the security of the residents of Israel," said Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, founder and president of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, announcing the plan at a press conference in Jerusalem on 8 March. The organization decided to provide the funds to Israel following the 21st suicide bombing against buses since the start of the Palestinian uprising in September 2000. Since then 164 people have been killed in such attacks on buses and 777 wounded.

There can be absolutely no doubt (except among the anti-Semites) that the #1 reason Israel refuses to allow the establishment of a Palestinian state and withdraw from the occupied territories is security. So here's a way for the National and World Councils of Churches to put their money where their mouths are. If they really care about peace in the Holy Land, let them help fund this initiative that will actually save lives and make Israelis more secure in the face of terrorism, and thus more likely in the long-run to give the Palestinians what they want.
Athanasius on 03.10.04 @ 02:53 PM EST [link]


Tuesday, March 9th

NCC stamps foot, nobody cares


The National Council of Churches Nobody Listens to Anymore has its bowels in an uproar over the Guantanamo detainees again. In a statement released yesterday, NCCNLA general secretary Rev. Robert Edgar said:

Today the U.S. government is holding hundreds of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay who have not been charged with crimes and who have been denied access to U.S. courts. Almost completely isolated, they are probably unaware that their case has brought us here to stand in front of the Supreme Court. We have not been able to learn much about them either. We certainly don’t know who among them may be innocent, who may be guilty.

They aren't being held there for breaking and entering, Bob. They waged war against the United States. No charges are necessary, no trials need to be held. How many German soldiers do you suppose went before a jury after being captured during the Battle of the Bulge? But of course part of the problem is the the NCCNLA thinks the war on terrorism is actually a police problem.

To that end, the National Council of Churches, on January 14, joined many other religious, legal and human rights organizations in filing an amicus brief in this case. Today, with these and other organizations we continue to challenge the startling and dangerous assertion that the United States’ government can sidestep judicial review while holding people outside our nation’s sovereign territory. The attempt to create a land beyond the law, where people are without rights, is troubling in the extreme. We may have a no-fly zone over Washington, but we should not have a no-legal zone anywhere.

That's clever, Bob. Only it isn't true. If the Guantanamo prisoners had no rights, they'd be interrogated under torture, held in stifling hot boxes where they couldn't sit down, stand up, or lie down, brutalized by sadistic guards, denied books, tossed rotten food, and ultimately executed on a whim. You know–treated like Iraqis under Saddam, whose otherthrow you opposed, Bob. Instead, they have decent conditions under which to wait out the war. In fact, they have the rights POWs should have under the Geneva Convention, which doesn't say anything about access to lawyers.

The National Council of Churches has said that the denial of rights that inhere in the worth of human beings before God are not only a crime against humanity. They are a sin against God. All faiths share this basic teaching, a fact that is reflected in the broad interfaith nature of a series of events that will be held in Washington and New York City over the next few days and that are aimed at securing the right of due process for prisoners on Guantanamo. All persons are connected in the family of God. My rights, your rights and the rights of the detainees are inseparable.

Just as the World Council did a few months ago, here the NCCNLA accuses the Bush administration of crimes against humanity. Re-convene Nuremburg: al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners are getting army food, not filet mignon! Oh, the horror!

And don't you love the claim that "all faiths share this basic teaching" that the "denial of rights" is a "sin against God"? Buddhists don't believe in God, for one. And at the heart of Islamic political theory is the idea of dhimmitude, which codifies the denial of rights to non-Muslims (not that Muslims themselves are dripping with rights, by Western standards). But what difference does the truth make? It's all just rhetoric, after all, right, Bob?
Athanasius on 03.09.04 @ 06:24 PM EST [link]


Monday, March 8th

Two new developments


With my daughter's help I've been able to do a couple of things. One is the banner above. Harpo has always been the essence of lunacy to me, and so seemed a fitting symbol (in the same spirit, the typeface is taken from the credits to Dr. Strangelove). The other is that I've ascertained that the permalinks provided by Greymatter actually work, so link away! Hopefully there will be more aesthetic changes coming, but in the meantime all suggestions are welcome.
Athanasius on 03.08.04 @ 11:03 PM EST [link]


Pluralism as art


An Episcopal church in San Francisco has redecorated in a rather unusual way. According to the diocesan newsletter:

St. Gregory, the fourth century bishop of Nyssa, extolled use of the dance in worship. Today, the San Francisco congregation that bears his name incorporates dance in its liturgies, while two rows of saints that surround them are ­ not surprisingly ­ permanently caught mid step in what looks like the same Tripudium, danced by worshippers below.

Larger than life, they are the work of iconographer Mark Dukes, who appears to have combined the characteristics of visionary, illustrator, graphic designer, muralist, and, of course, iconographer.

Each of the icons stands seven to eight feet high. The exception is Christ–the Lord of the Dance–whose twelve-foot high scale drawing is centered on the south (liturgical east) wall. When finished, the two rows of 84 saints in this wrap around mural will cover 2300 square feet.

Those nominated for the icons needed to exemplify traits emphasized by Gregory's teachings and are upheld in the life of the congregation. The members' chapter meeting identified the qualities and a committee of six gathered some 350 nominations. They researched biographies, sorted through the names and reduced the number to eighty-four.


Among the honored: Malcolm X, musicians John Coltrane and Ella Fitzgerald, dancer Martha Graham, Hawaiian Queen Liliuokalani, Sergius and Bacchus (4th century Roman soldiers and lovers), Charles Darwin, Margaret Mead, Jewish theologian Abraham Heschel, Muslim poets Rumi and Sadi, Confucian Kangxi (Chinese Emperor who reigned 1661-1772), Buddhist poet Su Shi, Hindu poet Mirabai, Shintoist Chiume Sugihara (the Japanese "Schindler"), and Greek pagan mathematician Hypatia.

What, no Wiccans?


(Left to right: Margaret Meade, Sadi, management guru W. Edwards Deming, Bacchus & Sergius and San Francisco sculptor Jenny Read)
Athanasius on 03.08.04 @ 05:38 PM EST [link]


What about your comfort zone?


Didn't see Gene Robinson on 60 Minutes last night (I was worried about over-working my gag reflex), but I did read something he said at his investiture yesterday.

"Journeys of faith, you know, are a risky business," he said. "God is always calling us out of our comfort zones."

So, Gene, when do you move out of your comfort zone? You're a highly paid bishop of the Episcopal Church, cohabiting with a man, toast of your church's hierarchy, gay man of the year–what exactly have you done in the last year that moved you out of your comfort zone? You've thrown the world-wide Anglican Communion into possibly terminal turmoil over your sex life. Even if you're genuinely convinced, as I'm sure you are, that there's nothing wrong with gay sex, you've decided that your sexual expression is more important than the millions of brothers and sisters who are scandalized over your behavior. Apparently the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 are of no more importance to you than those of Romans 1. ("Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others....But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake--the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours.)

So, Gene, again I ask: when do you move outside your comfort zone, rather than telling others to move out of theirs?
Athanasius on 03.08.04 @ 11:09 AM EST [link]



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