Replies: 88 Comments
on Thursday, April 29th, Phillipa said
I hope Macedonia has the wherewithal and the guts to fund Little's position and spit in the face of the Provincial Elders.
on Friday, April 30th, Reepicheep said
I fully expect that Macedonia will leave the MCSP... and I expect some other congregations will follow suit. Especially since the PEC's letter to the clergy is little more than a veiled threat... do what we say or "You're Fired."
I just cannot fathom how the PEC thinks that this is going to make things better here in the Southern Province. With all of the combined "intellect" that sits on the PEC you would think they would be smarter than this.
One would also think that they would see that this revocation of Br. Little's call makes it very clear that the PEC holds obedience to them in considerably higher regard than obedience to Scripture.
Lord have mercy!
on Friday, April 30th, Little Fly said
Thank goodness the PEC removed Little! The last thing the Moravian Church needs is more Baptist and Methodist trained intruders in the pulpit! If only the Moravian Church were strong enough to train its own, we wouldn't have to put up with this self-righteous reform movement that is tearing our church apart!
on Friday, April 30th, Priscilla said
I believe that unless the great number of so far silent Moravians rise up to challenge the actions and attitude of the current PEC, nothing much will happen provincially except the loss of Macedonia and several other churches, while the rest of the Province sinks further into financial ruin and spiritual stagnation.
It is time for those lay people and pastors who are unhappy with the leadership, positions and trends of the Southern Province to do something about it - if they don't then they will deserve the Province they get!
Jesus told us that there would come a time when teachers and leaders would seek to mislead even the faithful - is this such a time in the Moravian Church? If so, then those faithful to biblical authority and genuine christian action ought to begin speaking, calling meetings, writing, consider withholding funds, etc.
Not to do so simply allows the current course to continue. Remember "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men (and women) to do nothing".
on Friday, April 30th, james said
Gosh, I'm confused! Being a member of Macedonia let me just state that the only crime that our church seems to have committed is remaining and upholding the traditional beliefs of the historical Moravian church. That Jesus is the only way to the Father, that God's Word does not change as men's beliefs change over the years, that if God say's a certain belief or practice is wrong then who are we to proclaim differently?
In other words, Macedonia has just tried to remain faithful to God by proclaiming and standing up for God's Word. As far as authority, we recognize the authority of the PEC or other governing bodies as long as their authority does not contradict God's Word. That is what we are here for, to worship AND OBEY our Lord and Savior.
Little Fly, I forgive you for your comments. I hope we are not self-righteous as I am sure Jesus would not approve. Instead, I hope we are full of the righteousness that only comes from God through His Son. Reform movement? Curious but I have never considered our struggles in this way. As I stated above, we do not wish to change the traditional beliefs of the Moravian church but instead confirm them. That the church's beliefs have changed is what we are concerned about. But as the definition of reform means to make better, remove faults and defects, to put a stop to abuses, to persuade a person to give up misconduct and behave better, etc. then I guess maybe we could be accused of this. Funny, but I guess you could say that reform seems to be what God asks us to do in accepting Christ and conforming to His image. I am not even going to comment on the Baptist/Methodist statement except to say I hope you will pray about that and ask forgiveness. Either way, I do not hold these things against you but instead hope you will forgive and pray for us if we have made you uncomfortable by our stand.
Folks, we need your prayers. The last several years have been extremely tough for us. It is not easy to stand up and go against the status quo even when you feel that is what God is asking you to do. We are not sure what will happen in the weeks/months to come and I will admit that even though we feel that we are standing where Jesus wants us, we are many times scared and confused. We spend alot of time in prayer and asking for God's wisdom and discernment. We try to be as faithful as we can. I am sure we have made some mistakes, but we have prayed earnestly for God's guidence.
My church and I are not ashamed of our stand for Jesus. After all, that is what it is all about isn't it - Jesus.
Thanks - a brother in Christ
on Friday, April 30th, Reepicheep said
RE: Little Fly's Comments
I just have one question for you Little Fly... which should we obey, the infallible Word of God, or the easily mislead and corruptible words of men?
What is tearing this Denomination apart is NOT those that are chapioning the Word as our Ultimate Authority, it is those who seek to diminish it's importance and allow all manner of sin to become accepted.
Are the conservative Anglicans tearing the ECUSA apart, or the ECUSA leadership who has usurped the Word and replaced it with their own (read the Unmaker's) agenda?
Our motto is "In essentials, UNITY," but no one can agree on what the "essentials" are. For crying out loud our last Synod could not even agree to reaffirm the Ground of the Unity!!
Firm belief that Christ is the Sole Redeemer of God's Elect and that God has once and for all revealed His Will in the Word trumps being Moravian, Presbyterian, Anglican... every time.
Lest we forget our other motto, that is truly based on Scripture, "OUR LAMB HAS CONQUORED, LET US FOLLOW HIM."
on Friday, April 30th, Greg S said
Many prayers coming your way from the Northern Province.
on Friday, April 30th, Little Fly said
Dunn conformed to the expectations of the PEC! Is Little not responsible to do the same? I forgive Macedonia for implicating itself in this vigilante action against the Moravian Church.
on Friday, April 30th, Reepicheep said
No pastor should be required to conform to the expectations of the PEC when those expectations are clearly out of line with scripture.
Br. Dunn only told the PEC what they wanted to hear so he could keep his job. His posts here at EI last August showed that he had not had a change of heart regarding the necessity of Christ for the salvation of all. Remember, the PEC assured us that he had experienced a change of heart and had renounced what Br. Dunn said in the Moses Lectures and the Hinge Article.
The PEC has turned a blind eye to Br. Dunn's false teachings and the PEC has been less than honest in its reasoning for keeping Br. Dunn in the Pastorate at Messiah.
Meanwhile, souls are being lost at Messiah Moravian because of Dunn's false teachings.
At least Br. Little (and the Congregation at Macedonia) had the intestinal fortitude to listen to the Spirit and stand up for the Word (which is the only authority that we all must submit to).
The Moravian Church is an institution of man and is therefore errant by its very nature... that is why God gave us the Scripture... to check ourselves against. The Word is the only "true North" by which we navigate in this world.
on Saturday, May 1st, Little Fly said
Souls are being lost at Messiah? I'm sorry, but I thought that our salvation was secured for us by grace? You give Dunn too much credit! I guess the faithful readers of EI are are not free from error either!
on Saturday, May 1st, Reepicheep said
Secured by grace if one confesses Christ as their Savior. There are those at Messiah who are starting to believe that they don't have to confess Christ as their Savior because Br. Dunn has told them that Christ is not the only path to Salvation. Souls are being lost at Messiah... QED.
on Saturday, May 1st, Reepicheep said
To Little Fly:
Can you be a little less caustic and directly address and debate the issues raised here... instead of dropping in and being personally insulting?!
on Saturday, May 1st, Little Fly said
Actually, I am. Your explanation of salvation is actually a heresy. It's called Pelagianism. If you persist in believing it, you have no more place in the Moravian Church than apparently Dunn does. That is, unless you are willing to admit enough latitude of doctrine among Moravian churches to allow some of them to be Pelagian and some of them not. But that would compromise the very authority Little has to protest Dunn, especially since Dunn's error is not Pelagianism! Supporters of Little have been wooed into opposing Dunn for the wrong reasons, reasons that are themselves false doctrine! Frankly, I am sick of the rampant Pelagianism in the Moravian Church, and Little's vigilanteism only contributes to its spread. Our church is being torn appart because non-Moravian trained ministers are using the theological ignorance of their congregations to get them to support drastic actions that only divide and weaken the church. Dunn has admitted his error, regardless of whether or not you are charitable enough to accept it as sincere. When will Little?
on Saturday, May 1st, Athanasius said
Little Fly: Since I'm not sure I see it expressed by Reepicheep, would you mind explaining what you mean by "Pelagianism"?
on Saturday, May 1st, Little Fly said
Hmm, I think it would be more interesting for you to tell me why it is not?
on Saturday, May 1st, Lydia said
In his book, These Fifteen, Dr. Edwin A. Sawyer, in writing about John Hus, stated:
”To him Christ and not some human being was always head of the Church. He deserves to be Head of the Church because by His sufferings, death and resurrection, He founded it. He was sent by God the Father to save mankind and freely to forgive all who believe in Him and confess His name. By saying so much about Jesus Christ and the Bible, Hus showed clearly that he did not trust the word of the Church apart from the Bible. Neither could he feel that Jesus set Peter above all the apostles and meant for Christians to be ruled by popes. He believed that the ordinary lay member of the Church has rights and privileges, as well as do ministers, priests and other rulers.”
When Hus failed to “compromise” the Church rulers conducted a mock trial, tore his priestly robes from his body, and burned him at the stake. (Jesus wouldn’t compromise, so the ruling body conducted a mock trial, removed His robe, and hung Him on a cross.)
The Macedonia situation has similarities. They have refused to compromise their biblical faith, but rather are defending it, contending for the faith, guarding the truth, and now the ruling authorities have dismissed Brother Little from ministry because the church has withheld funds from the province in protest of decisions and actions that do not affirm Scripture, according to my understanding.
This dismissal made me curious about just how much growth has taken place at Macedonia since Brother Little began his ministry there. So I went to the statistics in the back of The Moravian Daily Text. Brother Little began ministry at Macedonia on 12/1/95, when Macedonia had a total of 482 members. The 2004 Moravian Daily Text states that on 12/31/02, Macedonia had a total of 755 members. This is an increase of 56.6%. In checking with the office at Macedonia, at the end of 2003 there were 778 members, and as of April 25, 2004 (2 days before Br. Little’s dismissal) the total rose to 810 members. On April 25, 35 persons were received into membership, of which 21 were transferring from four different local Moravian Churches. This means that during the entire 8 years and 5 months of Br. Little’s ministry, the membership has increased 68%.
Surely this must speak of a growing, living church. With minister, staff and congregation working together, equipping the saints for service and building up the Kingdom of God..
During the period 12/31/95 thru 12/31/02, the total provincial membership declined from 29,561, to 19,384, a decline of 34.4%. I do not have the Provincial figure for 2003.
Praise be to God for His great plan of salvation for us!
on Saturday, May 1st, Athanasius said
Sorry, Little Fly. You made the accusation, you have to justify it. What did Reepicheep or anyone else in this thread say that was Pelagian? Or are you just throwing around theological terminology without understanding it?
on Saturday, May 1st, Reepicheep said
If I may quote Inigo Montoya (regarding your use of the term Pelagianism), "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
The URL ondoctrine.com defines Pelagianism: "Pelagius believed that the consequences of Adam's (and Eve's) sin were restricted to themselves only and, as a result, he denied the belief that original sin was passed on or transferred to the children of Adam and thus to the human race. His teaching was that human beings are born in a state of innocence with a nature that is as pure as that which Adam was given at his creation."
Since you asked, my DLF, I'll tell you how what I said in my earlier post is NOT Pelagianism. All humans are born to original sin and we are perpetually sinners. We are completely unworthy of God, His Love or Salvation. But we have an advocate with the Father... His Son Jesus Christ. Anyone can be saved if they confess Christ as their Savior. Apart from Christ THERE IS NO SALVATION. Now that sounds like the exact opposite of Pelagianism to me.
Now, Little Fly, why don't you answer Athanasius's query and explain what you mean by "Pelagianism."
Pelagianism, at least, doesn't deny the necessity of Christ for Salvation... which, if you recall, is EXACTLY what Br. Dunn did.
BTW, you argue like Truman Dunn... you consistently avoid addressing the questions and points put to you and you sidestep into an unrelated issue. Let's stay on point please.
on Saturday, May 1st, Reepicheep said
Lydia - can you run that same analysis for the congregation at Messiah Moravian Church? Please, Please!?
on Saturday, May 1st, Little Fly said
I am defining Pelagianism in terms of Pelagius's contention that salvation is contingent on the individual's free-will acceptance of Jesus Christ as his or her savior, thus inverting the doctrine of grace. Pelagius's error was to make grace contingent on the individual's faith. Now, if Reepicheep means that a confession of faith is a sign of God's grace, then I have nothing to argue with. But this would still make the individual's salvation contingent on God's grace, not on anything Dunn may or may not say. To suggest that it does would put the parishoner in a position to choose his or her salvation, which sounds a lot like Pelagianism to me!
on Saturday, May 1st, Reepicheep said
Confession of faith is not so much a sign of God's Grace as it is a sign of the work of the Holy Spirit. Confession that one is a sinner and in dire need of the atonement provided by Christ is not a sign of God's Grace, but acceptance of it.
My problem with Br. Dunn is that he is teaching that there are other paths to Salvation and, therefore, one need not confess Christ as Savior to receive God's Grace. What Br. Dunn has taught is a lie of the first order that has the potential to lose souls (and based on a personal experience of mine, may have cost one already).
on Sunday, May 2nd, Little FLy said
Claiming that confession is necessary to recieve saving grace is Pelagianism regardless of whether or not confession is a sign of the activity of the Holy Spirit. Again, Dunn has submitted himself to the discipline of the PEC. Why not Little?
on Sunday, May 2nd, Reepicheep said
You are going to have to back up your definition of Pelagianism with some links, AND you are going to have to back up your claim that confession is NOT necessary to receive God's Grace with specific scriptural references. Otherwise, your arguments are just "flappin' in the breeze."
And don't cop out by telling me to answer why the converse of what I have asked you. If you want to debate here, you are going to have to answer questions that are put to you.
And again, Little does not have to submit to the PEC when they are WRONG! Little only has to submit to the Authority of God as revealed in the Scriptures. Or do you believe that the PEC knows better than God in His revealed word?
on Sunday, May 2nd, Dr. David Johnson said
One error of Pelagianism is that "man with the use of his free will alone could achieve spiritual advancement."
Ref:
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/p/pelagianism.html
That's heresy because God does the advancement in us, in spite of our sinful nature. Yes, we have free will to choose to accept the free gift of salvation offered graciously by God, and even this acceptance is in some measure, at least, the work of His Spirit.
Dunn's claim that through Christ the whole world is saved, implies that nobody needs to choose, repent, or receive any gift or work of God, and is antiscriptural. Yes, Dunn's view could rightly be called Pelagian, in that respect.
on Sunday, May 2nd, Athanasius said
A little clarity is necessary here. First, what Little Fly is talking about is not Pelagianism. Here, from the Catholic Encyclopedia, is what is called "the quintessence of Pelagianism":
1.Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.
2. Adam's sin harmed only himself, not the human race.
3. Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
4. The whole human race neither dies through Adam's sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.
5. The (Mosaic Law) is as good a guide to heaven as the Gospel.
6. Even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin.
What Little Fly is actually talking about is the issue between Calvinism and Arminianism (hence, presumably, his disparaging remarks about Methodism). When LF writes, "I am defining Pelagianism in terms of Pelagius's contention that salvation is contingent on the individual's free-will acceptance of Jesus Christ as his or her savior, thus inverting the doctrine of grace," he is talking about Arminius and Wesley, who taught that because of the prior working of prevenient grace, people were free to accept or reject the offer of salvation. While there may (and I emphasize may, since their emphasis on prevenient grace was so strong as to make even this doubtful) be echoes of Pelagius in Arminianism, the latter is as different from the former as Trinitarianism is from Arianism.
Second, what LF seems to be saying, in hyper-Calvinist fashion, is that no earthly agency has any role in the process by which God brings a person to faith. Truman Dunn's teaching and preaching, if heretical, is of no consequence because God is the sole agent at work in salvation. This sounds like the Orthodox Presbyterians saying that they can ignore the biblical call to evangelism because God saves whoever He wants regardless of human actions.
The New Testament rejects this view unequivocally. Jesus gives the Great Commission because God chooses to use human agents as His hands, feet, and voice. Paul says that he becomes all things to all people that he–he!–might by all means win some. John warns against false teachers who would, if they could, lead people astray. Again, Paul warns of the Judaizers' heresy both because it's false and because it would prevent some from receiving salvation. It certainly doesn't sound like the errors of a teacher are inconsequential.
Finally, between Dunn and Little: I don't know anything about what Truman is saying in pulpit or classroom now, so I can't say what the PEC should be doing now. But LF seems to be equating the two situations. One is a matter of the integrity of the gospel, the other a matter of church order. In some of our fellow mainline churches, the maintenance of a particular form of church order has been elevated to the point where it's more important than the gospel. But Reep is right: our first allegiance is to God, then to men, and where the two collide, we all know who gets the nod.
on Sunday, May 2nd, Priscilla said
Dear Little Fly,
A couple important clarifications:
As any informed Moravian knows, Moravians have never been hyper Calvinists, and the necessity of response to Jesus has always been part of our theology. If you will look at the service for baptism of children in the Moravian Book of worship - pg. 165 - "children share in the benefits of our Lord's redeeming work through God's grace AND THE FAITH OF PARENTS..." We baptize children on the basis of their parents profession of faith. We baptize adults upon their profession of faith. The Moravian Church, since ealiest days has held that Confirmation, with it's clear profession of faith, is the necessary next step from infant baptism. In fact, in most Moravian Churches I am aware of, if a child has not confirmed their faith by age 21, they are released from the rolls of the church membership.
We have always believed that the response of faith to God's grace is needed. This is an echo of Paul's words to the Romans in Romans 10:8-11 - "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth.... It is no denial of God's grace to affirm the need for personal response to Christ's work and confession of faith (see Athanasius' above). This is not Pelagianism.
Secondly, you speak so dismissively of reform, can you possibly have forgotten that the Moravian Church was born in the fire of reform. Jan Hus was forced by the powers of the Roman Catholic church of the day to recant his passion for the Gospel and the reforms of the church it mandated or die. He chose to die.
Those who followed him were so committed to reform that, in the custom of the day, they picked up swords to fight for what they believed.
The Renewed Moravian Church experienced its own reform on Aug. 13 and saw itself as an agent of spiritual challenge, encouragement and reform, and influenced the development of Methodism, Lutheran piety and many others. We have always been a reformation church - did you think there would come a time when the church would have outgrown it's need for periodic reform?
The Christian faith, as expressed in the mainline denominations is dying in the west, and not because it has been too true to the historic faith of the church - quite the opposite. This can be seen in the large growth of churches which are committed to the authority of the Scripture, the imperative of evangelism, and the call to holy living - all things the Moravian church used to stand for.
The call for reform is almost always a call to return to the biblical faith, to the early days of the church and to God's expressed purposes and mission for the Church and for individual Christians.
God help us if we ever believe that the church has moved beyond the need for reform, for that is nothing but arrogant, human-centered complacency.
There is much more I could say, but perhaps I'll end this way. It is my prayer that God will open the eyes of laity and clergy alike to the urgency of this time for Moravians- what will you stand up for - will it be Christ and the essentials of the Gospel and the Christian life?
on Sunday, May 2nd, Little Fly said
Thank God for this conversation! I wish it didn't need to be won with such contention, but it is powerful! My concern, Athanasius, is that the suggestion of a necessary confession begs Pelagianism because it denies omnipotence, which, as a matter of what Pelikan refers to as "the antinomy of grace and freedom," Pelagianism boils down to. I do not deny the danger of a false teacher, which is the reason that discipline was needed for Dunn, but it is simply not the case that he required disciplining because he was threatening the salvation of his parishoners. He will pay for his sins, not them. Also, I do not think you should downplay the links between Arianism and Pelagianism. In fact, Arianism clarifies our understanding of Pelagianism, even if you are inclined to defend--as a non-Calvinist--limited synergism. But you should also recognize that synergism is a mystery of the church that is not resolved. Praise God! Let's keep it up here!
on Sunday, May 2nd, Priscilla said
Dear Little Fly,
There is a great difference between Arminianism (which Athanasius referred to and which concerns the balance of- simply put - predestination and free will) and Arianism, which was a very early heresy which denied the full divinity of Christ and His co-equal status with the Father. Arius taught that Christ's nature was not the same as that of the Father - the homousios clause of the Nicene Creed ("of the same substance") came in response to the Arian heresy.
Since we're talking about important theological truths, the terms are important.
What all too many preachers/teachers today are preaching is very close to Arianism - false and dangerous and condemned absolutely by the church as heresy. This is one reason why we need reform.
No one (except perhaps fervid Calvinists) thinks Arminians are denying the faith.
The real question here in the Southern Province, with regard to Brother Little is still, who is the Lord of the Church, and what is the right, proper and godly thing to do when you believe the Provincial leaders are not following either the Scriptures or the historic Moravian faith and order and repeated conversation and other measures have no effect? The Scriptures tell us we must obey God rather than man, when the two are in conflict.
Br. Little and the Macedonia congregation (and several other congregations as well) are seeking to live out the answer to that question. They are paying dearly for their loyalty to God's Word and to the historic Moravian understandings of faith and godly life. What are you doing?
on Sunday, May 2nd, Athanasius said
LF: I don't want to defend Reep's terms, because they're his and I wouldn't necessarily use them. But if we can say that God has required that an individual must make a confession of faith to be saved, and God gives individuals the grace to be able to make that confession, how does that deny divine omniopotence? The fact that God is able to do all things doesn't mean that He must do all things. Can He save individuals apart from a confession of Christ as savior? Certainly. But if He has decided not to, that in no way limits His onipotence, it's simply an expression of His sovereignty. And in any case, it still has nothing to do with Pelagianism, which is not simply a denial of God's power but an explicit system of anthropology. As for the connection between Arianism and Pelagianism, I have no idea what you're talking about.
on Sunday, May 2nd, Lydia said
I discovered today that I had picked up Northern Province figures in my
comments. My apologies.
The Southern Province figures:
12/31/95 - 20,652
12/31/02 - 19,384
Difference: -1,268 = 6.14%
Figures taken from 1997 Moravian Daily Texts and 2004 Moravian Daily Texts
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla said
Dear Lydia,
Are those figures based on membership or attendence? Some large old churches keep people on their rollls for a long time, even though they no longer participate in the church. So, sometimes attendence figures are more revealing. It would also be revealing to see where decline has most occurred - within Salem Congregations, outside W-S, etc.
For example, If Macedonia Moravian has grown 60+ percent over those years, and my own congregation 20% just in the last 3 years, perhaps what is keeping Southern Province statistics from looking so bad is the growth of just a small number of congregations, including those lively and growing immigrant congregations in Florida.
While numbers don't automatically tell us about God's blessing - they do provide some idea of where God may be at work, and the PEC seems to be willing to impede God's work, at least in this case.
on Monday, May 3rd, Little Fly said
Arminianism. My apologies. Arianism is not the issue. Arminianism clarifies our understanding of Pelagianism insofar as it too implies an anthropology that inverts the doctrine of grace by making certain free human actions (such as a confession) necessary for salvation, effectively making freedom more powerful than grace. Please register the importance I have placed on necessity here! It is my understanding that the Moravian church does not deny the possibility that God may choose to save an individual in spite of the absence of confession or conversion, rendering Reep's comments contrary to Moravian doctrine. They are contrary to Moravian doctrine because, like Pelagianism and Arminianism but maybe for different reasons, they invert the doctrine of grace by making the efficacy of grace entirely contingent on freedom. Readers may have misidentified me as a Calvinist because I have defended the right and capacity of God to save the unconverted. I sincerely believe that he does, and if this requires me to leave the Moravian church, please let me know! This belief demands that I deny Reep's claim that confession is necessary. This also requires that I acknowledge that grace may always and at any time trump freedom--which, I believe, it does--making the absolute assertion that freedom must sustain the saving work of grace heretical. Now, maybe I have made a mistake by calling this Pelagianism (but I don't think so, at least so far as the term has come to be used in Protestant theology, for example in Bondage of the Will), but it does seem like a reasonable inference from the doctrine to me. In fact, I do not see how you could not come to this conclusion, unless you are willing to say that God does not under any circumstance allow grace to preserve apart from human freedom, which to my mind does deny God's omnipotence insofar as you are suggesting that God does not act contrary to your expectations of him. Regardless, and getting back to my original point, if people oppose Dunn because they think he has the power to single-handedly destroy their souls, they are wrong. Maybe they are Donatists? Maybe you are, Athanasius, but I don't think so. But a lot of people oppose Dunn for this reason, and a lot of Moravian ministers--I would argue the non-Moravian trained ones--are allowing this to happen. I am ashamed of these ministers, regardless of whether or not Little is bringing new members to the church, and regardless of whether or not they accept Dunn's counselling. If it is God's work to foster division based upon the toleration of error, then no thanks. If this error contributes to congregants' support of Little's vigilanteism against what is not his alone--the Province for which he works--and if Little is letting this go on, then I dare say Little will pay for his sins, just like Dunn.
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla, said
Little Fly,
I notice you are not answering my questions or comments. As far as I know - the Moravian Church has NEVER taught that salvation is independent of conversion or confession. To have done so would have made completely unecessary the work of evangelism and missions to which the Renewed Church dedicated itself at the cost of many lives and much treasure.
Also, please explain the use of the term vigilantism with regard to Br. Little and others - it seems mis-applied to me.
And let me tell you, in case you do not know, that there are Moravian trained ministers who believe exactly as Little does - and several more who may soon experience the same treatment, if the laity of our Province do not make their voices heard.
on Monday, May 3rd, member of Macedonia said
First, NOT ALL of the members agree with G. Little......His fight and cause has been clouded by him own wants--not God's will. He is not the martyr he appears to be. AND --there are not 800 members attending church at Macedonia...there may be 800 on the roles--but they ahve not purged those roles in many, many years- I know of someone on the roles that has not even lived in N.C. for over 18 years, and she is still listed as a member. I think the insanity here is with Greg Little and the boards and Greg's flock. The rest of us are just waiting for him to leave this month and get our old church back
on Monday, May 3rd, Little Fly said
Priscilla, I understand your concern that what I have said about salvation renders mission obsolete, but I cannot agree. We have a duty to share the good news with the world regardless of whether or not the people to whom we missionize will convert or be saved because of it! If we prove to be a vehicle of God's grace, all the better! However, this is because God chooses to communicate grace through us, not because anything we do is itself graceful! We share the good news, not throw down the gauntlet! The rest is God's work! I have to challenge your suggestion that the Moravian church has never taught that salvation is possible apart from conversion or confession. In fact, I have memory of Athanasius acknowledging as much last summer at the old blog site when he provided a correction to a statement that came out of the PEC during the Dunn affair. Unfortunately, that section has not carried over to his current archives. Now, the question of vigilantaism. Dunn has submitted to the discipline of the PEC. Little continues to act in defiance of the institution that owns the very pulpit he preaches from. You may think he has good reason to protest the actions of the PEC, and that may even give him the cause, authority, or maybe even the duty to leave his pastorate. But it does not give him the right to hold good Moravians like "Member of Macedonia" hostage. Little has taken church polity into his own hands--he thinks that he is an authority unto himself. I promise you, the Catholic and Orthodox churches would not tolerate this! Do you really think Little's actions benefit the lives of faithful Macedonians or of the Moravian Church as a whole? If the PEC is guilty of driving Moravians away, so is Little.
on Monday, May 3rd, Hus-r-us said
Member of Macedonia,
It was nice to see you in the church for the first time in three years last night. For your information we purged the rolls (not roles) last in 2001; just before you left. Our elders have a letter ready to go out now to purge them again.
Most churches have more on their roll (not role) than they have in attendance. We currently have 360 in worship on Sundays. I think you will find that makes us fourth on list of S.P. attendance, just as we are in members.
As for Greg, it would be beneficial for you to lay aside feel hatred of him and concentrate on what this is really about; Standing for Jesus and the authority of God's Word.
on Monday, May 3rd, Hus-r-us said
Oops
It appears I too need to proofread...
it would be beneficial for you to lay aside your hatred of him
on Monday, May 3rd, trusty said
As a former trustee at Macedonia, this whole situation troubles me greatly. For quite sometime, Greg and the boards have tried to find a way to reduce the dues paid to the Province. It appears to me that having found a Province that will accept them without having to pay any dues or really have any person or persons to answer to is an answer to Greg's prayer. Now he can sway the boards to spend money and do things his way, without worry of any discipline or question from any one.
Have the boards researched the Czech Republic Province to be sure they agree with their views on all issues and their stand on God's teachings on every aspect of life before they entertain the tought of joining a group half way across the world? Or is the temptation of not paying any money or having any human authority over their actions simply too appealing to them?
The issue of membership growth is also puzzling to me, the paper stated around 800 members but I'm sure there are no where near that many active members at Macedonia. Several times there has been mention of the number of new members who have joined Macedonia since Greg has been there, but no mention of the number of families that have stopped attending because of actions of Greg or the lack of ministry and guidance received from Greg. Many of those families are still members at Macedonia and are continuing to pray for the Moravian denomination, Macedonia, the Littles, and the return of the Church they joined, served, and continue to love, but cannot in good conscience attend.
on Monday, May 3rd, member of Mac said
Sorry Hus-R-us, but you don't have your facts straight--but again,if you back Greg, that might explain alot.
I have been in church several times in the past 3 years, so you don't seem to know as much about the church and it's members as you think you do! As for hatred for Greg, I have none, pity yes, but hatred no. Once again, facts are wrong... May 24 will be INDEPENDENCE DAY for many of us!
on Monday, May 3rd, Pomroy10 said
Actually, to suggest that Greg is 'holding Macidonia hostage' is not correct. The membership has been informed of every decision the boards have made along the way, and by-and-large, the congregation has agreed to, and supported every one of those decsions. While the overwhelming evidence is that the majority of the congregation agrees with these decisions, there are those that don't. Again, the evidence is (based on their silence) that these members are in the minority.
The decision of the PEC last Tuesday served only to more clearly define a division. The people who support Greg have been among the most vocal up to this point, while those opposed have remained relatively quiet.
I would suggest that those "members of Macedonia" who want Greg gone so "they can have their chuch back" need to start speaking up. A silent majority does no one any good if they remain silent. You must, however, be careful. You might find that you are not in the majority. This statement works both ways, for people on either side of these issues.
For what it's worth, other dominoes are starting to fall across the province. Look for a lot of Christ-centered, gospel preaching ministers across the SP to be given the left boot of fellowship because of their support for Greg Little.
on Monday, May 3rd, Disappointed at the division at MMC said
It's very sad to think that a stand for the Truth of the Gospel and the absolute authority of God's Holy Word has turned into a petty argument over whether or not we sing contemporary music at the early service because it's not "Moravian". I don't really care whether or not you like the music, or whether the lovefeast coffee isn't being served with enough sugar in it...That's what we call a "non-essential". What I do care about is whether Br. Little is a man that loves the LORD with all his heart. Is he a man that stands for Jesus Christ and preaches the Truth from the pulpit at Macedonia?
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla said
Dear MMC member,
May I ask how, given the congregational board elections, any pastor can "hand-pick" boards - it certainly does not happen that way at my church!
And what, may I ask, constitutes "Moravian" worship so as to make the early service at Macedonia "not Moravian at all". Moravian worship differs greatly from church to church around the world - and what you describe would certainly be seen as Moravian worship in a good number of churches. What about it seems non-Moravian to you?
As for numbers, in the Moravian Daily Texts, numbers are decided on the basis of membership statistics, and there is always a discrepancy between the membership numbers and the active attendance (see comment above), as there is in most mainline denominations. Just as we know that there are almost 2,000 members on the rolls of Home Moravian Church, but their average attendance is in the 400's.
There seems to be a real hostility from you to the elected Boards at MMC and the decisions they have made. Could that have anything to do with your designation of them as 'hand-picked"?
on Monday, May 3rd, girlfriend said
It seems to me that many of you are very judgemental and what in the world have you done to keep people from going out the back door yourselves? The numbers are NOT at all the issues and bringing your own personal attitudes into this dispute is far from standing up for Jesus. It sounds to me like you are out for getting satisfaction of revenge for yourselves. Doesn't the Bible say that if you have a problem w/ someone then you should talk to that person and then seek and OFFER forgiveness?
The issue is that the PEC is not standing on scripture whether it be the Northern Province or the Southern Province. Does the whole Board of Woorld Missions resigning have anything to do w/ Greg? NO! It was not about Greg there and it's not about Greg here.
To the MMC Member, again, I hope these new people are not joining to be Moravian but to be in a church where they can hear about, learn and grow in a relationship w/ Jesus. It is a place where they can worship just like the rest of us do whether the 8:45 or the 11:00. Again, it is not about being Moravian anymore. Concerning your comment about the hand picked boards then yes, I agree. God hand picked them, put them on our ballots and we voted for them. Thank you for mentioning that. I do not however appreciate you presuming why I come to the early service. And yes, you re right again. I do get a warm fuzzy when I go to the early service especially but his name is the HOLY SPIRIT. Come join us sometime but only if you can put your bitterness aside long enough to let him in!
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla said
MMC,
Yes, but how does the pastor do this? He/She does not control the nominations process, and in most all Moravian churches I am aware of, there are either nominations from the floor, or open nominations beforehand from the church body as a whole.
If there is a person with an opposing viewpoint and there are enough people who share that view, the pastor cannot prevent their election, nor can the pastor cause them to resign from the Board when they may find themselves in the minority.
What you are describing sounds more to me like the view of a discontented minority, whose views don't win the day, and therefore must denigrate the process and leadership that make the decisions. Am I wrong?
on Monday, May 3rd, Ralph James said
Wow, I am impressed. I am so glad there are those of you who can debate and understand each other on this level. To be honest, it makes my head swim in circles. I will be so glad when I am in my savior’s presence and he can explain all that has been said here! I am also so thankful that He loves simple folk such as myself even though I admittedly am lacking in this level of theological debate. I am starting to think that maybe I need to thank Jesus that He has not gifted me in this way!
Let me just stay with the basics so necessary to my limited abilities. Then I will bow out so I do not blow any intellectual fuses with my simplistic understanding, bad spelling, and regrettable grammar.
- Jesus loves me.
- I love Jesus.
- Jesus said He is the only way.
- I believe Him.
- For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Thank you dear Jesus.
First Vicki, I mean Member of Macedonia, we love you, but this issue is not about you and your personal disagreement with Greg. It is a whole different issue. Did you not vote for any of the members of the “hand picked board”? Yes, there are disagreements with Greg, with me, with you and with nearly everyone in our church. But this issue (if you care) is much larger then that pettiness. It is about Jesus and how will we answer to Him. The only response I have for the hand picked board comment is why did you vote for me or any others if you had this issue and you did. Or did it become an issue after you became discontented.
Little Fly - Should we contend for the faith? The history of the world is full of those who have died for their beliefs starting with most of the apostles. Even as we happily tap at our computers, arguing back and forth about the finer points of theology, our brothers and sisters in Christ and their children are suffering incredible persecution being jailed, mutilated, raped, and killed because of these simple beliefs. A great deal of them know little more then the simple promises above. And it is enough to sustain them even in the midst of the terror that surrounds them.
Jesus said we would stumble over Him.
I believe Him.
I am sick. Sick of hearing this is a "Greg Little" issue. Sick of hearing slander and ugly comments from someone who does not know Greg and has the audacity to slight the whole Baptist and Methodist denominations. This is my issue and proudly so. This is the issue of the larger part of the Macedonia congregation. This is the issue of many pastors and members of Moravian churches everywhere.
Last October, a Moravian wrote on the Moravian Forum: “How is God different from Allah, Tao, or The One? What's in a name? God by any other name is God. Others are guided down the narrow path to God by Mohammed, Lao Tzu, the Buddha, Shiva. Others believe in a universal Higher Power that is greater than the sum of all the parts of the universe. God by any other name is always God, and Christ or The Word is his prophet; be he Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or any or more than one of the other "Christs" who have brought The Word to us from God.”
Really? Are you kidding? I am tearing apart the Moravian church because I strongly disagree and voice my disagreement with that? Can you even lower yourself to say this agrees with any of the teachings of Jesus or the historical teachings of the Moravian church? Where exactly have I misunderstood that being a Christian means being a person who professes a belief in Jesus as the Christ, their personal savior, and observes His teachings as being infallible? Where in the Bible does it tell me that Mohammed or Buddha died for my sins? Do you think that Peter or Paul would say; “well, that’s ok, Buddha will get you to the Father also”?
Unfortunately, views such as this and other unbiblical teachings are becoming more and more prevalent in our denomination. True, as you say, Truman Dunn’s teachings or beliefs will not determine my salvation. But have you ever heard of CHILDREN or BABES IN THE FAITH. Are you saying that these are able to discern error from truth before they know the Truth? Then where is the need for teaching? What would be the purpose? Why did Paul and the others even bother?
You see, rotten wood against good wood rots the good wood and standing up for Jesus is not the rotten wood. But a heretical teacher can rot my kids if I don’t stand up and say “NO!” Neither will I support heresy with money that God expects me to glorify Him with by how I use it. What about this is not understandable?
As I said above, this is my issue and proudly so. My name is Ralph James and I am not going to hide behind another name. Maybe you can call me Ralmacmemb or something preferably nice if it is your pleasure. However, I do not know why that would be necessary.
I do not know how this will all resolve itself. Maybe, to your delight, the greater part of the Macedonia congregation will end up leaving and starting a new church. I hate to tell you this, but you will still have a problem. The problem is what are you going to do with Jesus. Salvation is not an intellectual exercise. It is a relationship. But hey, that’s kind of simplistic, isn’t it?
on Monday, May 3rd, Little Fly said
Well, I think this conversation proves that the situation is a little more complicated than we first thought. Again, thank you Greg Litle for making it possible! God must be very happy with the way we are acting.
on Monday, May 3rd, Pomroy10 said
Why weren't those evils broght to light last night, or at any of the other congregational meetings?
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla said
To all MMC posters,
I'm very interested to hear your differing points of view since I'm not a member of your church. But I have to say that, as Christians, it is your responsibility (as it is mine) to speak to each other, and the rest of us, even when we fervently and passionately disagree, with respect and with Christ-likeness. Many of you have been doing this, but some of you are clearly steppping over the line. Let me assure you that it only makes your point of view seem less worthy. If you want to convince others, then please speak as Christ-centered, godly, concerned men and women, not as people seeking revenge.
on Monday, May 3rd, WAS content to be Quiet said
Dear Ralph James or Ralmacmemb:
I will tell you why I and my family have been quiet. We've seen what Greg and the boards
(and yes, you were on the boards at that time) have done to Vicki when she brought some
things to light three years ago. She was shunned and made a scapegoat for doing exactly
what the bible says to do: Matthew 18. From talking to other members, they are keeping
quiet and this was also their reason for not approaching the boards with their concerns, as they didn't want to treated the same. I
now wish I had not kept quiet and will ask her for forgiveness for not verbally backing her
then. Rest assured, I will be speaking up and when I do, you will know it. And Ralph,
those of us that stay at Macedonia after May 23, we will do fine. We have Jesus as our
personal Savior and we know He is the only way to Salvation and we DO have a relationship with Him, which will be stronger without all of
this division in the church that you seem to thrive for.
on Monday, May 3rd, Billy Lagle said
Thank you Ralph for pointing this discussion to Jesus where it belongs!
I was on the board when Greg came to MMC so I guess I was "hand picked" too. The 8:45 music is not my style but that is the service that I most often attend in spite of the music. And I don't agree w/ Greg on everything(or anybody else for that matter) except on theological issues. One of the things that I have expressed to Greg and other Moravians is their lack of preaching on Hell, Fire and Damnation. Greg is a man that works for God. He is completely dedicated to doing God's work no matter what the consequences. And those of you who want to sit behind an alias, to criticize and attack him, need to think about what you are doing before it is too late and you bust HELL WIDE OPEN.
on Monday, May 3rd, Aurelia said
Vickie, if we all leave and you all "get your church back"(although it's not yours in the first place- it's God's), will you begin giving your money back to the PEC knowing where it will go? And will this be OK w/ you?
on Monday, May 3rd, Athanasius said
LISTEN UP! This blog and its comments column is an opportunity for people around the world to read and discuss issues of importance to Christians. It is not the place to carry on personal vendettas or to conduct debates that should be taking place face-to-face in local churches. Please keep that in mind, or I'll have to start banning posters, which I'd really hate to do.
on Monday, May 3rd, Marshall R. said
My opinions and observations in response to various points:
1) Board Elections: Each year MMC forms a nominating committee consisting of the Pastor, an Elder, a Trustee, and two at large members. This is not unusual in the Moravian world. They seek God's will in building a list. They then inquire if those will serve. Many, including some that I don't think would be considered "hand-picked" turn down the committee. Finally, some that feel led by God to serve accept the nomination. Then those names are put before council. However, floor nominations are accepted. And those nominated from the floor are sometimes elected. Perhaps a way can be found going forward to improve the process. In my opinion, there is no intent to "hand-pick" board members except, as was said, that the church body allow God to do the picking.
2) Numbers: 800+ (including children). 600 or so communicant members. Attendance - upper 300s from both services. All of these numbers are up. But more importantly, these numbers are not the right measure. This is a church that is growing in faith. Small groups have flourished. A seniors ministry was recently started. Sunday School attendance is at an all time high. VBS is a wonderful outreach to the community each summer. Camp Macedonia strains Laurel Ridge as we fellowship and learn together. Our youth groups are dynamic. I could go on and on. This is a growing, vibrant, congregation. People are coming to know Jesus! Praise be to God!
3) Concerns: Yes, some concerned members met some time ago. While some raised issues about our Pastor, I believe some issues were actually about a church struggling with growth. Good things came from that meeting -- the neighborhood care ministry, improved visitation ministry, etc. As any human, Pastor Little is not perfect, has made mistakes and needs to apologize. And sometimes personalities clash. And to be fair, some need to come and apologize to our Pastor.
4) Contemporary Worship: True, this is not a traditional Moravian Service. We have an 11am service that is. Both services have brought people to Christ! We had 30 join recently. We had nearly 20 youth confirmed, and not in a "I have to" way but as truly maturing young Christians. As to in-and-out members at the early service, yes, some do. Some do at the later service as well. This is unfortunately the nature of a church. You hope spiritual gifts are recognized and developed as members become active and serve each other, the community, and ultimately Jesus. But many of the folks are active!
5) Provincial dues: This is not an opportunity to try and reduce Provincial assessments. This is an issue of stewardship. Giving money to a PEC that does not, in its actions and inactions, support the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Christ's death on the cross is the issue.
6) Running out of time: We broke for prayer when a Christ-like manner of discussion was no longer occurring. I believe everyone there could see the need to stop and pray. As for running out of time, we did! It was wonderful that churches came to provide care for 86 (!) children but we had run well over and we needed to relieve them.
7) Not calling on folks: I fully take the blame. No intention was made to pick or slight anyone. Those up front were more likely to be called on than those in the back because I could see those folks more clearly. I humbly seek your forgiveness and wish I could have done a better job. I should have asked someone to keep track of who had their hand up longer. That entire situation was a bit daunting -- microphone not working, not getting the hand mic like we should have, and the number of people and their passion. Again, I am sorry. I do want to say, however, that board members remained available to talk and continue to be open to phone calls, etc. We want to hear your concerns.
Finally, as Pastor Greg preached on Sunday from James: "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." I pray that however this works out we seek to work in a way that will honor Jesus!
on Monday, May 3rd, Jenny Myers said
I am Jenny Myers. I am a member of Macedonia Moravian Church. I appeal to all Macedonia members and others who are associated directly with Macedonia, who submit messages on this or other message boards to have enough confidence in your beliefs, perspectives, experiences, opinions, etc. that you are willing to attach your real name to the message. Thank you.
on Monday, May 3rd, BD said
Certain people are overlooking the reason why Greg is doing what he is! He is standing up for JESUS and that is what we as Christians should all be doing!
on Monday, May 3rd, Bahnie DesNoyers said
Jenny, hello I am BD who just wrote. I apologize for the abbreviation of my name earlier.
on Monday, May 3rd, Priscilla said
MMC folks,
Perhaps you didn't understand Athanasius.
This is not a blog directly tied to Moravian institutions or churches. It is read by people arround the country and even around the world who have nothing to do with the Moravian Church. It is meant to address issues in a general way, not as a place for specific attacks on people. Some of us who are commenting read this blog frequently, so some of you who are new may not understand its function and its readership. Do you really want to air your church's dirty laundry and an unchrist-like mode of discussion and specific personal attack in front of all those people?
May I suggest the website at moravians.org. This is a website, with a forum section that is exclusively devoted to Moravian Church concerns and may be a more appropriate venue, especially if the level of discourse here is going to degenerate.
I will say, as someone outside your church, the posting by Marshall reflects the best in Christian communication, humility and a willingness to listen - others of you would do well to imitate him.
on Monday, May 3rd, Athanasius said
Priscilla: Thank you for that last comment. Right on target.
MMC Member: This Web site belongs lock, stock, and cyberbytes to me. I publish it at my own expense as a hobby and a service to a readership. But it is still a private endeavor, and you have no "right" to be here. You, like everyone else who comments here, does so at my sufferage. So keep your keyboard civil. You are free to express any disagreements with Greg Little or anyone else you wish to. But please take any personal attacks on Little's character (or that of any poster) elsewhere.
on Monday, May 3rd, Angie York said
After reading the postings from today, I have noticed many false statements and misrepresentations. As secretary of MMC and more importantly, as a member who loves the church, I encourage anyone seeking truth to contact the church office at 998-4394 for copies of ANY minutes of any meetings that have occurred at any time. These have always been available for anyone requesting them. I will be more than happy to provide these minutes.
on Monday, May 3rd, Little Fly said
I am sad now. Maybe I should go back to bashing liberals and secular humanists. That is much easier than seeking clarity among Christians. We will be our own undoing.
on Monday, May 3rd, Kevin Kerr said
Brothers and Sisters of Macedonia. After reading all of the posts on this site I felt compelled to write.
I have never considered myself a Biblical scholar and I am certainly not as far along in my Christian walk as most of you. I'm still somewhere in the woods, but I'm getting closer to the path.
Tonya and I have been at Macedonia for more than 8 years. I have spent more time worshiping at Macedonia than at any other church in my life. We have raised our children their and have become active members of the congregation.
Those who know me know that I do not wear my religion on my sleeve. I am a private person when it comes to prayer and I have not yet found my comfort zone with sharing my faith.
Although I have agreed with the stand taken by our church leaders I have questioned the method. I have been searching in the Bible for an example of how to deal with such a protest and have not found anything showing me how Jesus withheld talents from those in authority whom He questioned. Perhaps some of you scholarly folks can lead me in the right direction.
We are now at a crossroads and decisions need to be made. Because of the split in our congregation, I ask those of you who choose to follow the path of a new beginning to consider the following:
Please leave Macedonia Moravian Church as it is. We owe it to the families of the founding members to allow this church body to continue as they wish under the Southern Province. Members will remain who will be more than willing to pick up the pieces and continue to serve the Lord. These members will also resume the battle against the controversial decisions of the PEC in a less controversial way.
on Monday, May 3rd, Reepicheep said
I have to say that at this point, I am in 100% agreement with Br. Little Fly who said in his last post, "We (Christians) will be our own undoing." The content of the debate here has degraded into an exercise that has brought no glory to Our Father... but I am sure it has put a smile on the face of the unmaker (he that is in the world).
Believe me, Christ has wept in the wake of last nite's meeting at MMC and the ensuing personal attacks that have been leveled by brothers and sisters in Christ at their fellow brothers and sisters. And that goes for persons on both sides of the debate at MMC... there is plenty of shame to go around.
Let's be absolutely clear what the issues are here. The issues are NOT Greg Little, Truman Dunn, or the PEC. They are persons, sinners (like myself) who are prone to error. When all is said and done, those individuals do not matter.
The real issue at stake here is Authority... who has it and when/should we submit to it. Since the institutions of men are innately errant, those institutions must be continuously scrutinized in the light of the Scripture. What our response is to the discovery of error in the institutions of man is one that requires prayer, study, prayer and more prayer.
Did I mention prayer?
We must listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance and be mindful that our responsive actions hold the same capacity for error as the error we protest.
Let's remain united in our desire to bring Glory to God in all we say and do and recognize that some will determine that separation from the MCSP is the route they are led to take while others will be led to stay and fight from within... both are equally viable in God's eyes as long as we stand for the TRUTH!
on Tuesday, May 4th, Reepicheep said
I don't mean that Greg, Truman and the PEC "don't matter" in the sense they are unworthy... I meant that whereas they have become lighting rods for these issues, they are not the issues per se.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Little Fly said
I believe God is better served in times like these to seek unity in our diversity. I hope that Br. Reep and I could achieve this in spite of our doctrinal differences, but I doubt seriously if it will ever come if we take the behaviors of Dunn, Little, or the PEC as our model. We need a different road altogether. I dare say Athanasius has not pointed us toward this road either, but I do appreciate his concern and his effort to create a forum for discussion. I hope that I too have a place at this table, even if I disagree with some of his conclusions and some of the conclusions of his readers. But the tone of this site I fear only foments the sort of viciousness we have seen today.
We need to abandon this rhetoric of righteous discontent. We need to give up our claims to superiority. We need to address each other as the sinners we are. We cannot be humble or loving enough. We cannot show enough charity to each other. I challenge every Christian to take on the discipline of humility, including the author of this site. Otherwise, we continue to implicate ourselves in this perennial viciousness.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Reepicheep said
Little Fly - we can verbally sparr about Pelagianism, Confession or even Consubstantiation vs. Transubstantiation. But as long as you and I agree that there is no Salvation apart from Christ, we agree on the only important issue... and that is what makes us Brothers in Christ!
On that same point I agree with you that God is always better served when we seek unity in our diversity. I strongly believe that those who have posted here would agree that what unifies us is our unyielding belief in the One whose blood was spilled and body broken for us.
I was going to make another point but my week-old son is under the impression that I can function with less than four hours sleep... so I will stop here before I start typing nonsensical statements like "May I mambo dogface in the banana patch?"
on Tuesday, May 4th, Little Fly said
Sleep is good. I agree fully that there is no salvation apart from Christ, and I hope you can accept me even if I believe that God chosses at his discression to save people who do not confess that same belief. I also hope that our church is charitable enough that we can recognize, appreciate, and respect the different needs and desires of different congregations, and that we can shape our behavior so as to foster love rather than anger. I will take an expression of love over a confession of faith any day.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Ralph James said
To all: I’m sorry. I ask for your forgiveness. I ask Jesus’ forgiveness. I never should have allowed myself to be drawn into this discussion. It has not glorified Jesus in the least. Obviously we disagree. Lets agree to disagree. Lets be able to see each other in the grocery store, smile and say hello, and love and accept each other in the love of Christ. I love all of you even if my words did not convey that love. Macedonia is Jesus’ church. If a new church is started out of all of this mess it will also be Jesus’ church. This needs to stop. God have mercy upon us for the unkind words and the hurt that has happened here.
In Christ love - Ralph
on Tuesday, May 4th, Athanasius said
The tone has certainly changed overnight. Glad to see it.
LF: Pelagianism is a serious charge, hence my serious response. I have no trouble welcoming you here, or in my own congregation, for that matter. I appreciate your call to humility, something desperately needed (by me more than most!) in the midst our current difficulties.
I have not pointed us to the road we need to take because I don't have the answer. I strongly believe in our Moravian motto, "in essentials, unity, etc." and as I look to other denominations, I see those that are successfully living that motto. They tend to be evangelical (not fundamentalist–the latter have a hard time saying anything is non-essential; and not liberal–they have a hard time saying that anything is truly essential), and believe that trying to accomodate everyone at every point on the theological spectrum is both contrary to the motto and undermining to the church's unity and mission. I suspect that ultimately it won't be possible for the Moravian Church to make that accomodation, and some people–some on the right, some on the left–will feel compelled to leave. That will be sad, but the alternative is the disintegration of the church as a body that can accomplish anything for the Kingdom.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Aurelia said
I too,Ralph, have already asked forgiveness of my God, Pastor and board member for falling into this trap of frustration w/ my fellow church members. Now, I ask it of you here. I continue to love you all whether I agree w/ you or not. I pray that we can all put aside our personal issues to focus on the spiritual battle this is in the Christian world not just at Macedonia or in the Moravian Church.
May God be Glorified!
on Tuesday, May 4th, old traditional member said
Dear Lydia
You need to clarify a few of your numbers in your analysis of the growth of Macedonia.
#1 There have been over 3,000 houses built in the immediate area of Macedonia Church in the last 8 years
#2 All these additional families have spawned an increase in every Church in the immediate area not just Macedonia.
#3 There have been several new 500 member churches built in the area and several more are in the building stage
I really don't think you can give Greg Little all the credits for the membership increases that you do. During the years he has been Pastor of Macedonia 60% of the members who were worshiping there prior to his arrival have left because of he and the new members alienating them from their previous worship habits.
I look forward to getting back to a church that doesn't have to have a set of drums onstage and video presentations to keep the members interested in attending. If the sermon is good then you don't need all these accessaries to go with it.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Vickie Whicker said
My name is Vickie Whicker and I’ve been a member of Macedonia for many years. There have been many differences on many levels these past several years and even more so now between Macedonia church and the PEC. One church not united cannot do the Lord’s work, no matter how hard we try. They are always obstacles in our way. Two church bodies could grow strong and both be great followers of our Lord, doing His will. Strife isn’t easy, arguments aren’t easy, churches splitting isn’t easy either. But I do believe that the time has come for us to focus on what God is telling us. Even if it is not what any of us want to hear. One thing we all agree on is that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation and we all want to keep our friendships and family ties that we have made at church. This is possible even if the church splits. Think of how many other people you are friends with that go to another church? We don’t have to be in the same church to remain friends. We need to keep our friends close and our enemies closer. I truly believe that if we had all of this behind us and could move forward and each of our churches grow in God’s light, and all of this energy could not be used to do His Will.
If my speaking out the other night offended anyone, I am sorry, but as a member of Macedonia and a Christian and I believe that I must stand up for my beliefs. All of us need to learn to forgive, I have. We need to listen to God’s Will and make the best of this situation ...let’s make God and Davie County proud of how we handled this and move on.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Traditional Member said
My dear members-- Yes, we will pay our dues to the PEC---We are not hypocrits who can't pay to support retired ministers or Laurel Ridge--and yet who have already started advertising for "Camp Macedonia" @ Laurel Ridge this year and continue to pay into Greg's pension fund. We are hurting many other people other than ourselves by not doing as we should. I don't agree with everything going on at Macedonia and yet I put my tithe in the offering plate each Sunday. I don't agree with how the government using my money--but I pay taxes. The boards (other than TW and JS) are not looking at the whole picture--The Boards and Staff seem to do what they think is best at the time.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Little Fly said
Athanasius, thank you for your response. Yes, Pelagianism is a serious charge. I know you understand my concern that sometimes what we say can do much more harm than the intended good (I remember once you said "Down with Liberals, up with God!" I don't imagine this brought "liberals" any closer to the fold). I believe very much that we are just as responsible for the people our language hurts as the people our language helps, regardles of whether or not we intend for them to be our audience. This is what I mean by showing the right road. I am not so concerned about your conclusions as am how many people are driven away from the faith because of the way you say it. Take that as you wish, but as a brother in Christ I feel I have the duty to tell you.
Now, for the Evangelicals. I understand the attraction, but we should also put on the table some of the troubles that follow from this movement. First off, in part what this experience has shown is how Evangelicalism can hide very important doctrinal differences. Many Evangelical congregations succeed because of the popularity of the culture they provide, not because they inspire or conform to right doctrine. I am deeply concerned that Evangelicalism may support sloppy doctrine just as easily as liberalism, and that evangelicalism is itself not the solution to this problem. Additionally, while not fundamentalist per se, many Evangelical Churches define themselves in terms of being at war with a fallen culture. I have never known this message to grow unity within the faith. This rhetoric is and always has been popular in America, but it is important to remember that it is in the end just that--rhetoric. It does not contribute to unity or to the spread of the Good News, but instead contributes to further division.
I understand that you may feel called to a certain militancy in your Christianity. That is one way of being a Christian. There are many saints in heaven who were not. I just want you to consider the consequences of the road you choose to take, and put its costs in balance with the costs others you may not agree with will themselves pay.
I do not intend to scold here. I consider conversations of this sort to be a form of communion among Christians, a way for us to share the movings of the Spirit in all of its forms. It is one of the ways we learn from each other. Now, let us pray for the MMC, and pray that everyone there and throughout the world may find a home in Christ.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Reepicheep said
Dear "old traditional member," "Traditional Member," and "Reform Macedonia"... your continued tone of hatred and disrespect for Br. Little has no place here at EI and has NO PLACE IN GOD'S KINGDOM. Take it elsewhere... I am tired of reading it.
on Tuesday, May 4th, old traditional member said
Reepicheep
Exactly where in my post did i show hatred for Br. Little???? OR disrespect??? i just stated the facts AS THEY are evident.
on Tuesday, May 4th, Karen Wilson said
An Open Letter to the Pastors and Provincial Elders of the Southern Province of the Moravian Church.
Most Merciful Heavenly Father,
I Love You. My heart opens to You and to Your leadings. Fill me with Your Holy Spirit, so that I may pray according to your precepts. That my prayer will be pleasing to You. That Your Will be done. I gaze around at the beauty of Your hand. My soul wells up spilling over with desire for Your nearness. Open my heart Father. I see and hear Your creation moaning for Your perfection. I am held breathless for Your return in all Glory and Honor. I ache in anticipation of Your righteousness being known to all, of Your final say, when all of the earth knows. I thank You for the blessings of my life, our family, our home, our friends, our body of Christ our church. You lead me in ways I could never have imagined. I delight in Your hand on my life. I look for Your strength and guidance. Teach me to be Your obedient servant. Keep me close to You. Don’t let me stray. Shield me from those who would come between us. It is an honor to be counted as one of Your own. Let me always remain Your child. Keep me simple Father, that I may stay focused on You.
Father, I would ask that You cover Greg and Beth Little and their children with Your Heavenly protection. That You would preserve them. They are Your willing servants Father. They speak Your truths. They cherish Your Word. They love the Living Word. They are the ones that You love Father. Please cover our elders with Your mighty hand. Let not the worldly strike fear in their hearts. Let our elders stand with the strength of a thousand of Your warriors Father. Let Your Light go before them. Let those who would have them disobey You fall by the wayside. May the leaders of Macedonia Moravian Church, our elders, spiritually and literally march through any lines that would try to cause them to falter in their mission. May their mission be Your mission. Purify their hearts and may their words be Your Word. May those who would not honor You be amazed at the strength and presence our elders have in defending Your Will. Show them Father through Christ Jesus our Savior that Your Will be done. May our elders and our pastor be shining lights reflecting Your Glory. May the detractors see the face of Jesus in our leadership. Abide with our leaders, fill them with Your Holy Spirit. Give them the words and the actions that Glorify Your Most Holy Name. May their words be a worship unto You. Almighty Father, I ask for this in the precious name of Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer.
Amen
April 27, 2004
Gentle Pastors,
That was my prayer on the day the Provincial Elder’s Conference of the Southern Province was due to meet with the board of elders of Macedonia Moravian Church.
I can only assume that all to whom I am sending this know the outcome of that meeting. I am writing to each of you to ask for your consideration. I, as do countless other members of the laity, need answers from the Provincial Elders and from those Pastors called into service in the Moravian Church. In Love, I am asking if your eyes and your hearts are open. The Moravian Church in America is losing her way. Are we so comfortable in our lives that we would let a brother who stands on truth be cast aside. To whom do you turn in time of need? To whom do we turn? Where is your conscience? To whom is your allegiance? Have eyes been so closed that we have become dull in our senses to those who would honor our Heavenly Father? Were we, at Macedonia, so unwilling and so unyielding that force was used in order to gain back our love, our allegiance? Did it ever occur to anyone that our current leadership may have heard a greater call or are those revelations reserved only for Provincial Leaders? Do you know the hours, days and months our leaders have spent in earnest prayer on these issues. Do you think there would be so much strength of purpose, so much likeness of mind without a guidance greater than that of man?
I am not a board member. I am not an elder. I am merely one who sits in pews on Sunday morning delighting in the Word of my Heavenly Father. The Father speaks, the Spirit fills and Jesus is Love at Macedonia Moravian Church. My prayer is that your churches experience the same. I came to Macedonia knowing full well of her position within the Moravian Province. I came to Macedonia BECAUSE of her position in the Province. Others have flocked here as well. Our membership continues to grow.
I grew weary of human secularism, of vacillation, of status quo and of lack of commitment on the part of other Moravian church leaders as to the authority of scripture. I needed to hear my Father’s Word spoken and I came searching for it. I made my way through other places in the Moravian Church to Macedonia to finally rest where truth is spoken in love. Please grant me that Freedom. Do you still hear that truth? Will you die comfortable in your beds surrounding yourselves with bricks and stone having forgotten the Great Commission? John Hus did not.
In Christ,
Karen S. Wilson
When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I came to you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2: 1-5)
on Tuesday, May 4th, Debbie said
Being a member of MMC all my life, also being married there, raising 2 boys there and attending church services there has been something that I always knew I would do. The problems that our church is facing are very serious and I am terribly afraid that our church will split.
Greg Little is a wonderful preacher. He preaches the word of God and do a very good job every Sunday. It really bothers me that these problems have changes so many people. Several people who I have admired and highly respected have really disappointed me. I know everybody has the freedom to believe and voice their opinion but to start turning against one another, well it is something that I never thought I would see happen. My dad is on the board and he stood up and spoke at the congregational meeting on Sunday night. He spoke what was on his heart and he spoke the truth. He didn't say anything with the intent of hurting anybody or belittling anybody. What he said was the truth. It has really suprised me about the number of e-mails and phone calls he has received with people chastising him for voicing his opinion. I can only hope and pray that these people find what they are looking for in a church if they decide to leave. I wish them the best in all that they do.
There is one thing that I would like to know though, My dad is the same man that these people knew and thought the world of 10-15 years ago, and now you have "turned on him". I just don't understand. Again I wish you the best and may God bless you and your family in all you do.
on Wednesday, May 5th, Old Member said
I am not one who attacked your father Sunday night, but I witnessed it. I was appalled that ANYONE could speak to such a hardworking, giving, loving, committed, Christian in that manner! Your father did NOT deserve what Ms. Loos and others said to him and he did not deserve the disrespect! This has all gotten out of hand! I am embarrassed what our Boards and Pastor are letting happen. They should have appologized to him THEN! I understand he was then attacked at the meeting that followed. I am so sorry! I am praying for your family and our Church family. I am sure that our blessed Savior is right beside your dad and holding his hand through all this! I'm just afraid he is not with many others of us!
on Wednesday, May 5th, staying silent said
And people wonder why some are remaining "silent" and not speaking up against the Pastor and the boards on their decision. This is a prime example as to why people are staying silent.
on Wednesday, May 5th, JesusLover said
Dear Old Traditional Member,
Your numbers need clarification in your response to Lydia asking her to clarify her numbers.
Yes, there is a tremendous amount of growth in the area, especially in new construction. But you should know the story behind the new members. The majority of the new members are transferring from other Moravian churches in the area because of their church's position or lack thereof on the Truth. For the most part, our new members are not new to Davie County or even from Davie County at all.
There have been three new churches started on this end of Davie County. Only one of which has 500 members and only one of which has actually built a building. And when you say "in the building stage," the other two have only started talking about raising money, no where close to breaking ground.
No one should be giving Greg credit for the growth at Macedonia. Praise be to God for that. And saying 60% of the members who were worshiping there is grossly exaggerated. The actual number is less than 60 people. But, then again, any percentage of "not much" is still "not much", considering there were less than 100 people attending worship before Greg arrived.
No one has been alienated from their previous worship habits. Worship is no different today as it was when Hampton departed. (At the 11 o'clock service).
No church "has" to have a set of drums. No church "has" to have a video projector. These are mere tools used to enhance worship, as is an organ, a piano, a microphone, and the Moravian Hymnal. Is there something wrong with the person who doesn't have the God-given talents to sing in a choir to express his service to God by playing the drums, or the saxophone, or the the guitar?
on Wednesday, May 5th, Kevin Kerr said
Well it is official. On May 23rd (Our Anniversary Sunday) Macedonia's congregation will officially split. However, actual divide of the congregation has been taking place far longer than that. It is time to choose a side, stay or go, yet please continue to love one another as you do Christ.
The harsh words and actions (from BOTH sides of the fence) of this last week have caused serious hurt to ones we are to 'love as ourselves'. Look at this crossroads not with anger, but with love for your neighbor. We need these next few weeks to be filled with love of the Holy Spirit. Not with anger or malace in our hearts.
Think before you speak.
Let it go.
God Bless us ALL!!
on Wednesday, May 5th, Debbie said
Old Member,
Thank you for standing behind my dad. He is only doing what the Lord has put on his heart to do. It is going to be a very tough time in the coming months for our church as well as the ones leaving and starting another church. I pray the Lord will bless both them and us and that after all is said and done everybody is happy, everything has calmed down and the Lord is being praised for all his wonderful blessings.
on Wednesday, May 5th, Sarah Harper said
As a member of Macedonia, I wanted to clarify something. I admire Greg and believe him to be a Godly man. I admire him for his stance and support what he is doing. But I am not following Greg, I am following Jesus and submitting to His authority; not the authority of the PEC or any other human organization. I have been involved with several other denominations over the past several years and have seen ups and downs with them as well. However, I feel that this issue is not just about the Moravian denomination nor any individual, it is about a serious issue that needs to be addressed and should be the concern of every Christian. The issue at hand just goes to prove that this is an attack by Satan. I know that there are many theological debates out there but I know a plain and simple fact that cannot be taken in any other context. Jesus is the One and Only way to salvation and preaching otherwise is not Biblical. I will not stay in any church, denomination, etc. that preaches otherwise nor will I monetarily support any organization that takes the issue in stride. Maybe I am seeing the argument at hand in too simple of terms but it seems pretty cut and dry to me. Believe what the Bible teaches about salvation or disregard it. I choose to believe and will follow my pastor who believes the same.
on Wednesday, May 5th, Old Member said
Dear Jesus Lover----I think you should go check the records....there WERE over 100 worshippers before Greg! But--whatever, the split has happened -- the old and the new will both go on serving God and that is what each of our divisions wanted in the first place.
Thanks be to God for helping us to find the answers!
on Wednesday, May 5th, Debbie said
To Sarah Harper,
I want to wish you and your family the best in your decision to leave MMC with Greg. Greg is a wonderful preacher and I hope he and the church he starts does wonderful.
I just want to clarify one thing. Our church has not been preaching anything other than the true word of God. The way to try and get the (SP)PEC to change their views of this is to stay and fight in the Synod. I really hope that everything goes well and I look forward to seeing past or present MMC members in the neighborhood. After all, Davie county is not that big and we are sure to run into each other some time.
God Bless you!
on Thursday, May 6th, Oldie said
well-I guess it's all come to an end. The staff gave up, the boards (but 2) gave up the battle too. I'm glad the arguing is over and each side can begin a new work in Him. I only wish that the harsh words had not happened. I wish we could all agree to disagree. I wish one side had not slandered the other by insinuating that one side is not Christian. We all believe that Truman Dunn was very wrong. We ALL agree that the PEC handled the situation WRONG! We just all don't agree with how the staff and boards handled the situation for our Church. Maybe a Church Council should have been held to come to a joint decision on what to do. I guess we'll all join together and go on worshipping a Mighty Wonderful God--who truly does answer prayers!
on Thursday, May 6th, MMC member said
Remember that when you take on the PEC, out of all the PEC board members, there is only one who is conservastive. So, the odds are 7-1. That's not much of a voice. If Synod were held now, the ratio is 51 ish to 7. There are 51 or so liberal churches voting vs. 7 conservative churches voting. There is no chance of making a differnece there either w/ those odds. Any suggestions?
on Thursday, May 6th, Oldie said
I'm sorry MMC member--WITH GOD anything is possible. And God will answer our prayers and we WILL make a difference at Synod 2006! I'm almost certain with the prayers of everyone, even those of you leaving, if you truly have God in your heart we can offer to God our prayers for change and WE ALL will make a difference in God's kingdom! You see it all goes back to turning it all over to God and letting him take care of business. I think that's what you were preaching earlier this week!
